Morris from Malmö writes: Hiroshi's question and your response spoke to me. Mary's insights put words to how I have come to view relations. At 20 I sought out to just “get laid” and consolidated the scattered pick up artist advice into something I called “the system” that was successful. Much to the annoyance of my roommate who was at the time operating on a piece of advice he got in college, “Make as many female friends as possible and everything else will work itself out,” which as far as I could tell got him a series of weak relationships of the nature Mary describes and a bunch of freeloading friends who would happily give him the time of day and nothing else in return for a subway sandwich.
Hell yes, Morris! I had a very similar life, and my ultimate boss in the PUA world was a girlfriend I finally landed and committed to, I figured she was a 10/10 and very conscientious... But I did still like to party a bit. In the negotiations of trying to get to that next level, she wanted me to mortgage a house and let her move in, before getting married. I said no no, we get married first, then I buy the house. As you say, why should I comply when I'm not getting a wife out of the deal? This back and forth went on for 2 more years, until finally I said "If we had a timeline on getting married, maybe I'd jump some hoops." She said "What if we just dated for 7 years or something and never actually got married?" I said "I'm done with you, then. Now. I'm not wasting that much of my life to find out." Of course, she married someone else 5 months later, a la 500 Days Of Summer.
But it worked out. The next woman I took seriously was not as attractive, but was every bit as serious about what it takes for marriage to work out. We have four children together, 10 years later. My ex was recently in the news being fired for embezzling from an NGO, lol.
OK, finished reading the whole letter. Rings are uncomfortable and weird (as are earrings and all other jewelry, especially the kind that pierces your skin - just step back and think about it...). I bought some after a creep tried to chat me up on a bus, but I don't take the bus anymore. Don't judge.
I guess he's 26, though, so how could he not judge.
Still, he's crossed a maturity threshold. I remember I crossed a very distinct threshold around 24 when I went from thinking I'll want to be child-free forever to definitely knowing I would feel like I've lived a defective life if I didn't have kids. Like Jordan Peterson's lecture for this Swede, for me, there was a distinct trigger event. But, I think at some age we are simply ready to hear the message, and before that age, we aren't.
I still feel like it might be a good idea to live together for a while before getting married/having kids just to make sure there aren't any red flags you've missed...
In any case, it's the custom of my people. It used to be scandalous to live in sin...now it's more scandalous not to.
Another consideration: Maybe the women would eagerly agree to marriage with someone they don't really know very well yet aren't generally the ones you should want, or at least, there may be some women who could make great wives, but might need some time to warm up to the idea, who, just like most guys, is instantly pressuring them for too much commitment too soon.
But otherwise I completely agree with this.
I think if you are going to do the "transitional" period... If you do it, in your own mind at least (and unless she's dense she'll probably pick up on it), as a way of screening for suitability for marriage...
But yeah, I totally relate to this experience. I've had one year-long relationship and dozens of ONSs and flings... At least before college, when I started to overcompensate for my awkward youth, all I really wanted was the right woman, but I couldn't get with one who I felt was suitable.
Part of the reason for that was, maybe this is totally narcissistic, but I always had the sense that if I got into a serious relationship, she would want to marry me, and I was afraid of getting stuck with the wrong person. True, there's no perfect person, but some are more enjoyable to be around than others, and the rest of your life is a long time to spend hanging out with someone all the time. Plus, I don't think I could be really committed to a relationship unless I felt like _I_ chose her.
Basically, I've always known I'm a catch, and could never bring myself to settle to someone who was any less...but when social skills are like your only area of weakness (ok, not my ONLY one, but still)...
But yeah, the normal route these weird pseudo-monogamous relationships without real commitment, like "going steady" in high school for your entire adult life...it's like... WTF man. What are you doing?
From an evolutionary perspective, when you mate with a woman you are "trying" to get her pregnant. If you succeed, you have two options: abandon her, or don't. That's why we have this this "Madonna/whore" dichotomy... Not because there are actually two types of women, but because, from an evolutionary perspective, there are basically two possible "uses" a man can have for a woman: A free, easy way to get a chance of getting your genes into the next generation with no further effort on your part, or a partner with whom you can completely, jointly dedicated to the shared task of creating children and helping them thrive. The second is what we call romantic love. Just because it's easier these days to go through the motions prompted by these primal instincts without experiencing the usual consequences doesn't mean the underlying psychology is any different.
We shall note that many people get married and get divorced anyway.
I don't know how that works. Like, how did Bill and Melinda Gates divorce, after many years and many shared projects? In my understanding, you'd have to get consistently nasty and cold towards each other to cross that line.
Then I kinda fell into a relationship that dragged for four years, in large part because it was long-distance. This forced me to think about proposing, which forced me to think of myself for the first time as a potential husband and father. Then she dumped me, finally admitting that we're not really compatible.
Hell yes, Morris! I had a very similar life, and my ultimate boss in the PUA world was a girlfriend I finally landed and committed to, I figured she was a 10/10 and very conscientious... But I did still like to party a bit. In the negotiations of trying to get to that next level, she wanted me to mortgage a house and let her move in, before getting married. I said no no, we get married first, then I buy the house. As you say, why should I comply when I'm not getting a wife out of the deal? This back and forth went on for 2 more years, until finally I said "If we had a timeline on getting married, maybe I'd jump some hoops." She said "What if we just dated for 7 years or something and never actually got married?" I said "I'm done with you, then. Now. I'm not wasting that much of my life to find out." Of course, she married someone else 5 months later, a la 500 Days Of Summer.
But it worked out. The next woman I took seriously was not as attractive, but was every bit as serious about what it takes for marriage to work out. We have four children together, 10 years later. My ex was recently in the news being fired for embezzling from an NGO, lol.
OK, finished reading the whole letter. Rings are uncomfortable and weird (as are earrings and all other jewelry, especially the kind that pierces your skin - just step back and think about it...). I bought some after a creep tried to chat me up on a bus, but I don't take the bus anymore. Don't judge.
I guess he's 26, though, so how could he not judge.
Still, he's crossed a maturity threshold. I remember I crossed a very distinct threshold around 24 when I went from thinking I'll want to be child-free forever to definitely knowing I would feel like I've lived a defective life if I didn't have kids. Like Jordan Peterson's lecture for this Swede, for me, there was a distinct trigger event. But, I think at some age we are simply ready to hear the message, and before that age, we aren't.
I still feel like it might be a good idea to live together for a while before getting married/having kids just to make sure there aren't any red flags you've missed...
In any case, it's the custom of my people. It used to be scandalous to live in sin...now it's more scandalous not to.
Another consideration: Maybe the women would eagerly agree to marriage with someone they don't really know very well yet aren't generally the ones you should want, or at least, there may be some women who could make great wives, but might need some time to warm up to the idea, who, just like most guys, is instantly pressuring them for too much commitment too soon.
But otherwise I completely agree with this.
I think if you are going to do the "transitional" period... If you do it, in your own mind at least (and unless she's dense she'll probably pick up on it), as a way of screening for suitability for marriage...
But yeah, I totally relate to this experience. I've had one year-long relationship and dozens of ONSs and flings... At least before college, when I started to overcompensate for my awkward youth, all I really wanted was the right woman, but I couldn't get with one who I felt was suitable.
Part of the reason for that was, maybe this is totally narcissistic, but I always had the sense that if I got into a serious relationship, she would want to marry me, and I was afraid of getting stuck with the wrong person. True, there's no perfect person, but some are more enjoyable to be around than others, and the rest of your life is a long time to spend hanging out with someone all the time. Plus, I don't think I could be really committed to a relationship unless I felt like _I_ chose her.
Basically, I've always known I'm a catch, and could never bring myself to settle to someone who was any less...but when social skills are like your only area of weakness (ok, not my ONLY one, but still)...
But yeah, the normal route these weird pseudo-monogamous relationships without real commitment, like "going steady" in high school for your entire adult life...it's like... WTF man. What are you doing?
From an evolutionary perspective, when you mate with a woman you are "trying" to get her pregnant. If you succeed, you have two options: abandon her, or don't. That's why we have this this "Madonna/whore" dichotomy... Not because there are actually two types of women, but because, from an evolutionary perspective, there are basically two possible "uses" a man can have for a woman: A free, easy way to get a chance of getting your genes into the next generation with no further effort on your part, or a partner with whom you can completely, jointly dedicated to the shared task of creating children and helping them thrive. The second is what we call romantic love. Just because it's easier these days to go through the motions prompted by these primal instincts without experiencing the usual consequences doesn't mean the underlying psychology is any different.
This is king shit.
We shall note that many people get married and get divorced anyway.
I don't know how that works. Like, how did Bill and Melinda Gates divorce, after many years and many shared projects? In my understanding, you'd have to get consistently nasty and cold towards each other to cross that line.
Autistic poster and autistic reply
In my early twenties dating sucked for me.
Then I kinda fell into a relationship that dragged for four years, in large part because it was long-distance. This forced me to think about proposing, which forced me to think of myself for the first time as a potential husband and father. Then she dumped me, finally admitting that we're not really compatible.
After that dating was great.