It is exactly the age 30+ women who have "grown out of" the excitement phase which are looking at a relationship as a purely transactional agreement when they are looking for a "serious guy with a serious job" to "settle down" with. Transactional relationships like this are exactly what I am warning against, not advocating for.
It is exactly the age 30+ women who have "grown out of" the excitement phase which are looking at a relationship as a purely transactional agreement when they are looking for a "serious guy with a serious job" to "settle down" with. Transactional relationships like this are exactly what I am warning against, not advocating for.
"I think it provides good survival tips for navigating the present dating environment, but my concern is that it fails to provide a way to return to sane, normal, well adjusted human relationships. What I've read of the manosphere seems to explicitly reject that idea."
Save from seceding and starting your own commune in the desert somewhere, there is no escaping these realities. We may larp all we want, but the world simply does not work the way we want to, the way we think it is reasonable and desirable to and this is not changing anytime soon. By now even christian religious communities (save for the most backward ones like the amish) are thoroughly "progressive" insofar as sexual and relationship mores are concerned, particularly with regards to women. I am sorry, but I don't think the western world is not going back to "sane, normal, well adjusted human relationships" any time soon. And to be honest, the east is not doing too good either.
I guess I misunderstood. The manosphere and manosphere adjacent material that I've read looks at relationships in a very transactional way, and it can be boiled down to "women look pretty and provide sex, and men provide material security in exchange, and maybe the both of them get some kids out of the deal." There's also the angle of looking at oneself and others as commodities in a sexual marketplace. Which, while not incorrect in any natural biological terms, still fails to capture the conscious experience of the whole thing.
So this specific sentence
"For one, there is a massive sexual market value mismatch - she is exiting her prime years, and you are entering yours. She is getting a great deal, especially if you are a well-educated, fiscally independent man with good professional prospects. You on the other hand are getting a very bad deal - she has already nearly lost what men value most in women (youthful beauty)"
Colored my perception of the rest of your post. Which I see as being more reasonable now.
"I am sorry, but I don't think the western world is not going back to "sane, normal, well adjusted human relationships" any time soon."
I agree. But that's why it's important to think about how to play the long game. Ultimately, we're fighting thoughtless social entropy, which is just carried forward by human inertia. We're not fighting an intelligent enemy, and that's to our advantage. Moreover, everyone seems to be miserable, or some flavor of it - people are fed up, and that's good for anybody with an alternative. Young people are the target demographic, of course. They're the only people that can easily go out and build newer, better communities because they have nothing to leave behind. They don't have any stake in the present system.
I'm not really dating at the moment - I'm working on myself. Besides, the "dating scene" seems more like a hellscape. But when I think about my romantic future, it involves finding not just the right woman, but the right community in the right place. Not just trying to find my little slice of happiness or companionship, but finding it in a way and place where there's the greatest opportunity to make a positive impact towards the future. After Rome fell, it was the occupants of those distant villas who rebuilt Europe, slowly but surely.
Ultimately we can't turn back time. But there's still opportunity to build a future.
It is exactly the age 30+ women who have "grown out of" the excitement phase which are looking at a relationship as a purely transactional agreement when they are looking for a "serious guy with a serious job" to "settle down" with. Transactional relationships like this are exactly what I am warning against, not advocating for.
"I think it provides good survival tips for navigating the present dating environment, but my concern is that it fails to provide a way to return to sane, normal, well adjusted human relationships. What I've read of the manosphere seems to explicitly reject that idea."
Save from seceding and starting your own commune in the desert somewhere, there is no escaping these realities. We may larp all we want, but the world simply does not work the way we want to, the way we think it is reasonable and desirable to and this is not changing anytime soon. By now even christian religious communities (save for the most backward ones like the amish) are thoroughly "progressive" insofar as sexual and relationship mores are concerned, particularly with regards to women. I am sorry, but I don't think the western world is not going back to "sane, normal, well adjusted human relationships" any time soon. And to be honest, the east is not doing too good either.
I guess I misunderstood. The manosphere and manosphere adjacent material that I've read looks at relationships in a very transactional way, and it can be boiled down to "women look pretty and provide sex, and men provide material security in exchange, and maybe the both of them get some kids out of the deal." There's also the angle of looking at oneself and others as commodities in a sexual marketplace. Which, while not incorrect in any natural biological terms, still fails to capture the conscious experience of the whole thing.
So this specific sentence
"For one, there is a massive sexual market value mismatch - she is exiting her prime years, and you are entering yours. She is getting a great deal, especially if you are a well-educated, fiscally independent man with good professional prospects. You on the other hand are getting a very bad deal - she has already nearly lost what men value most in women (youthful beauty)"
Colored my perception of the rest of your post. Which I see as being more reasonable now.
"I am sorry, but I don't think the western world is not going back to "sane, normal, well adjusted human relationships" any time soon."
I agree. But that's why it's important to think about how to play the long game. Ultimately, we're fighting thoughtless social entropy, which is just carried forward by human inertia. We're not fighting an intelligent enemy, and that's to our advantage. Moreover, everyone seems to be miserable, or some flavor of it - people are fed up, and that's good for anybody with an alternative. Young people are the target demographic, of course. They're the only people that can easily go out and build newer, better communities because they have nothing to leave behind. They don't have any stake in the present system.
I'm not really dating at the moment - I'm working on myself. Besides, the "dating scene" seems more like a hellscape. But when I think about my romantic future, it involves finding not just the right woman, but the right community in the right place. Not just trying to find my little slice of happiness or companionship, but finding it in a way and place where there's the greatest opportunity to make a positive impact towards the future. After Rome fell, it was the occupants of those distant villas who rebuilt Europe, slowly but surely.
Ultimately we can't turn back time. But there's still opportunity to build a future.