I didn't expect this response and I truly appreciate it.
It is, to some extent, very accurate. There's a thing with made-up nations though: as soon as people start identifying with it, it's no longer fake, it's real - the perception becomes reality almost immediately. Israel learned it the hard way, when we discovered in the late 70s that Arab population of Judea & Samaria are "Palestinians" (nobody heard of any "Palestinians" in the Middle East before this nation was invented by Soviets to legitimize Arafat). However fake it was in the beginning, it's immediately become real.
The nation-defining moment for the present-day Ukraine was 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea and started hybrid war in the east. Which is why I keep saying that - regardless whether you love or hate Putin and his agenda - it was an incredibly dumb move.
Just imagine: you're Putin. You want to keep Ukraine in the sphere of your influence. To that end, you install an absolute moron as a president, he eventually pisses off everyone, and ends up being overthrown. In response, you annex one most pro-Russian region and start the war in the other two, effectively excluding them from Ukrainian political process completely. At the same time, the rest of the country goes into full WTF mode. They see what's happened as betrayal. They don't want to have anything in common with eastern neighbors anymore. They _are_ a different nation now. And you made it real by your own actions.
Of course, cultural influence of the Ukrainian language is not even close to Russian. But it doesn't matter. Most of those people, even those who don't speak Ukrainian, don't want anything in common with the Russian national identity.
Bottomline - not everything that State Department supports is necessarily evil. It can occasionally support some good stuff, too.
P.S. Ukrainian nationalists are by no means 'libs'. They're far right hardliners (mistaking them for nazis is not accidental)
P.P.S. (3/12/22) It's been 2 months since this comment was written. It's still too early to tell what the outcome will be, but the way the "invented nation" is tearing to pieces the "2nd army in the world" is remarkable.
Supposedly "college educated" Americans (which in these days means squat as far as erudition and knowledge of history goes) would know nothing of the above, in fact they'll know more trivia about BS pop culture topics of the day, than about history and geopolitics. They'll still feel it necessary to have an opinion on the matter, and even support (or the more delluded, demand) "action" based on the shitty State Dep. propaganda they read in the media (which would never get into any real background). Sadly the same goes for many Western Europeans these days...
Not that this was a high effort post from you, but it's a bit ignorant to speak on this topic without talking about the Zaporizhian Host, which was a breakaway state from the Polish, before they had to submit to being a Russian vassal, and lasted until Catherine the Great broke it up. This state is why the Ukrainians all claim Cossack Ancestry, and is the origin of the semi autonomous cossack host system. (I highly doubt the ancestral for many, but I will say that my patrilineal line weren't serfs). After this state, it seemed that Kyiv always consistently had a rogue elite that would try to write in the Ruthenian language, and tried to upkeep a Ruthenian high culture (which is why I suspect it seems today's Ukrainians, or at least their government when advertising to the world seems to focus so much on Ukrainian composers).
But I wouldn't overall say that you're wrong here either.
Though, since rogue elites are something that strikes your interests, I do suggest you look a little further into the topic if it you feel.
OT: Anyone else think "Kyiv" is a wasp's nest of a mouthful to enunciate? Just terrible. In the English speaking world it was always Kiev, the nicer Russian pronunciation, then somehow all the butt-hurt OCD Ukrainians began their campaign of changing something they had no business to do. As if Slavs pronounce Paris or München correctly...
Ruthania was mostly rural, and most bürgers were germans, Jews and poles. Most local petty nobility (Gogol would be an obvious example) knew ruthanian. The nobility in the western regions was tri lingual (ruthanian, russian, polish) Contemporary Ukrainians can easily read 17th century documents like the constitution of Philip Orlyk
Still harsh lol. Speaking as a speaker of English, the dominant and continuing to dominate language saying it's only natural for some languages to die out reeks of the same out of touchness that you accuse our elite of. Cultures and traditions being destroyed is still a sad thing, the world losing true diversity. Get back to the delights of monarchy my friend.
Curtis, I just heard your January appearance on The Pete Quinones Show. You are more informed on the history of Ukraine than the average person, but you're definitely misinformed on the subject of the Ukrainian language, which is far more complex than what you're painting there. Kudos for knowing about the Ruthenians, but you're grossly oversimplifying even their history and situation. Furthermore, *even* if it were true that the Ukrainian language is being foisted upon the population, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work or hasn't already worked. Israel's language is Hebrew, and the Jews who live there now use it, even though their recent ancestors spoke Yiddish, English, Russian, etc. Even in the Soviet era, Ukrainian was at times discouraged and at times encouraged. My father, who lived in the Konotop and Kiev areas in his youth (60s-70s), had to learn Ukrainian in school.
It sounds to me like you were listening to some biased person who's firmly on one side of the issue. I've encountered these people on the Russian, Ukrainian and Ruthenian side who will say equally absurd things, such as, "Ukrainian is not a real language, it's just a bastardized Russian", "Russian is not a real language, it's a language made up by Moscovite Jews", and "Ruthenians are really Russians", etc. Don't believe wholesale anyone making such statements.
Finally, you were wrong just as Putin was in your estimation of the willingness of the Ukrainians to defend this, perhaps new, Ukrainian identity.
Wow, this didn’t age well. It appears that Ukraine is indeed a nation and it’s leader, whether conversant in Ruthenian or not is conversant in cojones, which is the lingua franca of bad asses. I assume you would have equally scoffed at a bunch of goofy colonials in 1774, with their weird-headed disdain of the dominant world power and it’s overwhelming military.
So, claiming Crimea as part of Ukraine is less true than claiming California as part of Mexico. About the same is valid also for Donbas and other Eastern regions where Soviet army shed tons of blood liberating this land from the Nazis during the battle for the Kursk during WWII.
If Ukrainian government abandons its unfounded claims for Russian territory populated mostly with Russians, they will be left on their own. Putin and most of the Russians don't care about this newly-born state except that he would tolerate NATO nuclear weapons stationed there as much as US would tolerate them in Cuba. Cuban crisis anyone? The bad thing is that there is no someone like JFK today. MIC won decades ago.
Pretty much this. But I’d like to stress that nothing, barring lack of political will and vision, prevents the Putin from, say, deporting the majority of Ukranian population to Pluto and then expanding the Black Sea to cover the territories cleared in such a manner.
Given the Biden family's deep connections and experience in Ukraine, could there be a predetermined outcome in the works? Putin takes back the Russian bits to restore the empire's legacy, Ruthenians are liberated from their urban oppressors, and Biden chalks up a much needed diplomatic win in time for midterms. Then let the pipelines flow!
I didn't expect this response and I truly appreciate it.
It is, to some extent, very accurate. There's a thing with made-up nations though: as soon as people start identifying with it, it's no longer fake, it's real - the perception becomes reality almost immediately. Israel learned it the hard way, when we discovered in the late 70s that Arab population of Judea & Samaria are "Palestinians" (nobody heard of any "Palestinians" in the Middle East before this nation was invented by Soviets to legitimize Arafat). However fake it was in the beginning, it's immediately become real.
The nation-defining moment for the present-day Ukraine was 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea and started hybrid war in the east. Which is why I keep saying that - regardless whether you love or hate Putin and his agenda - it was an incredibly dumb move.
Just imagine: you're Putin. You want to keep Ukraine in the sphere of your influence. To that end, you install an absolute moron as a president, he eventually pisses off everyone, and ends up being overthrown. In response, you annex one most pro-Russian region and start the war in the other two, effectively excluding them from Ukrainian political process completely. At the same time, the rest of the country goes into full WTF mode. They see what's happened as betrayal. They don't want to have anything in common with eastern neighbors anymore. They _are_ a different nation now. And you made it real by your own actions.
Of course, cultural influence of the Ukrainian language is not even close to Russian. But it doesn't matter. Most of those people, even those who don't speak Ukrainian, don't want anything in common with the Russian national identity.
Bottomline - not everything that State Department supports is necessarily evil. It can occasionally support some good stuff, too.
P.S. Ukrainian nationalists are by no means 'libs'. They're far right hardliners (mistaking them for nazis is not accidental)
P.P.S. (3/12/22) It's been 2 months since this comment was written. It's still too early to tell what the outcome will be, but the way the "invented nation" is tearing to pieces the "2nd army in the world" is remarkable.
Supposedly "college educated" Americans (which in these days means squat as far as erudition and knowledge of history goes) would know nothing of the above, in fact they'll know more trivia about BS pop culture topics of the day, than about history and geopolitics. They'll still feel it necessary to have an opinion on the matter, and even support (or the more delluded, demand) "action" based on the shitty State Dep. propaganda they read in the media (which would never get into any real background). Sadly the same goes for many Western Europeans these days...
Not that this was a high effort post from you, but it's a bit ignorant to speak on this topic without talking about the Zaporizhian Host, which was a breakaway state from the Polish, before they had to submit to being a Russian vassal, and lasted until Catherine the Great broke it up. This state is why the Ukrainians all claim Cossack Ancestry, and is the origin of the semi autonomous cossack host system. (I highly doubt the ancestral for many, but I will say that my patrilineal line weren't serfs). After this state, it seemed that Kyiv always consistently had a rogue elite that would try to write in the Ruthenian language, and tried to upkeep a Ruthenian high culture (which is why I suspect it seems today's Ukrainians, or at least their government when advertising to the world seems to focus so much on Ukrainian composers).
But I wouldn't overall say that you're wrong here either.
Though, since rogue elites are something that strikes your interests, I do suggest you look a little further into the topic if it you feel.
OT: Anyone else think "Kyiv" is a wasp's nest of a mouthful to enunciate? Just terrible. In the English speaking world it was always Kiev, the nicer Russian pronunciation, then somehow all the butt-hurt OCD Ukrainians began their campaign of changing something they had no business to do. As if Slavs pronounce Paris or München correctly...
Ruthania was mostly rural, and most bürgers were germans, Jews and poles. Most local petty nobility (Gogol would be an obvious example) knew ruthanian. The nobility in the western regions was tri lingual (ruthanian, russian, polish) Contemporary Ukrainians can easily read 17th century documents like the constitution of Philip Orlyk
Still harsh lol. Speaking as a speaker of English, the dominant and continuing to dominate language saying it's only natural for some languages to die out reeks of the same out of touchness that you accuse our elite of. Cultures and traditions being destroyed is still a sad thing, the world losing true diversity. Get back to the delights of monarchy my friend.
Weird that you found it necessary to apologize for this of all things.
Curtis, I just heard your January appearance on The Pete Quinones Show. You are more informed on the history of Ukraine than the average person, but you're definitely misinformed on the subject of the Ukrainian language, which is far more complex than what you're painting there. Kudos for knowing about the Ruthenians, but you're grossly oversimplifying even their history and situation. Furthermore, *even* if it were true that the Ukrainian language is being foisted upon the population, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work or hasn't already worked. Israel's language is Hebrew, and the Jews who live there now use it, even though their recent ancestors spoke Yiddish, English, Russian, etc. Even in the Soviet era, Ukrainian was at times discouraged and at times encouraged. My father, who lived in the Konotop and Kiev areas in his youth (60s-70s), had to learn Ukrainian in school.
It sounds to me like you were listening to some biased person who's firmly on one side of the issue. I've encountered these people on the Russian, Ukrainian and Ruthenian side who will say equally absurd things, such as, "Ukrainian is not a real language, it's just a bastardized Russian", "Russian is not a real language, it's a language made up by Moscovite Jews", and "Ruthenians are really Russians", etc. Don't believe wholesale anyone making such statements.
Finally, you were wrong just as Putin was in your estimation of the willingness of the Ukrainians to defend this, perhaps new, Ukrainian identity.
Yes. Well. Don't forget that the God of Austrian Economics, Ludwig von Mises, came from Lemberg, in Galicia. After, and before, it was Lvov or Lviv.
And how come a Jew had a "von" in his name? You might well ask. But I couldn't possibly comment.
Then, of course, there is the question of Silesia. Bless its heart.
Shouldn't have capitulated. We don't negotiate with Ukrainians.
Wow, this didn’t age well. It appears that Ukraine is indeed a nation and it’s leader, whether conversant in Ruthenian or not is conversant in cojones, which is the lingua franca of bad asses. I assume you would have equally scoffed at a bunch of goofy colonials in 1774, with their weird-headed disdain of the dominant world power and it’s overwhelming military.
David Stockman has another great analysis concerning Ukraine and US policy mistakes in https://internationalman.com/articles/david-stockman-on-why-the-us-government-is-enforcing-the-dead-hand-of-the-soviet-presidium-in-crimea/
So, claiming Crimea as part of Ukraine is less true than claiming California as part of Mexico. About the same is valid also for Donbas and other Eastern regions where Soviet army shed tons of blood liberating this land from the Nazis during the battle for the Kursk during WWII.
If Ukrainian government abandons its unfounded claims for Russian territory populated mostly with Russians, they will be left on their own. Putin and most of the Russians don't care about this newly-born state except that he would tolerate NATO nuclear weapons stationed there as much as US would tolerate them in Cuba. Cuban crisis anyone? The bad thing is that there is no someone like JFK today. MIC won decades ago.
Pretty much this. But I’d like to stress that nothing, barring lack of political will and vision, prevents the Putin from, say, deporting the majority of Ukranian population to Pluto and then expanding the Black Sea to cover the territories cleared in such a manner.
Given the Biden family's deep connections and experience in Ukraine, could there be a predetermined outcome in the works? Putin takes back the Russian bits to restore the empire's legacy, Ruthenians are liberated from their urban oppressors, and Biden chalks up a much needed diplomatic win in time for midterms. Then let the pipelines flow!
intersting primer on Ukranian history: https://thesaker.is/ukrainian-nationalism-its-roots-and-nature/
Written from the pro-Russian and Russian Orthodox perspective.
This is cool, an exegesis. It's a nice payoff, after absorbing the poetic absurdism of the original e-pamphlet